>>>And we are all probably willing to acknowledge that it is a good idea to submit to the authority of our supervisors at work.
Yeah... but our moderns would have a LOT more problem with what the text actually says, eh? That slaves should submit to their masters?? Methinks that passage is a LOT more problematic nowadays than the wives/husbands one :)
>>willing obedience from the one submitting and willing sacrifice from the one being submitted to.
Fascinating parallel. Not one that would come to my mind. We have, what, at least five distinct relationships covered here? Husband/wife, parent/child (which is two relationships, but who's counting?), master/slave, magistrate/citizen, elder/parishoner.
I would have said that the contrast was 'willing obedience' (and, indeed, more than mere obedience) vs 'Godly leadership'. So in the husband/wife the husband is to 'wash... holy... blameless' In the case of fathers 'provoke not... bring them up... admonition of the Lord', and for masters 'forebearing threatening' (and, in other passages, other things), magistrate/citizen we read the magistrate is not to bear the sword in vain, but to execute wrath on those who do evil, and in the case of elders, to teach and exhort and discipline vis a vis sin.
The idea of willing sacrifice seems much less clear for most of those relationships, and only part of the husband/wife one.
Well, yes. This post is only focusing on the husbands and wives section of Paul's teaching about submission found here in Ephesians. And the idea of willing sacrifice from husbands I think is clearly taught in this passage. I'll get to the other relationships Paul specifically teaches on here in Ephesians in the next few posts, so stay tuned...
I guess I didn't paste enough for my comment to make sense. Here is the fuller quote:
>>First, that the submission relationships laid out in Scripture always entail specific obligations for both people involved: willing obedience from the one submitting and willing sacrifice from the one being submitted to.
I was focusing on the 'submission relationships... always entail... willing sacrifice'. That does not seem to be a common theme, although it could be forced into some relationships. There seems a distinct lack of Scriptural emphasis, for example, on how the civil magistrate is to 'willingly sacrifice' himself for those in his charge.
So while the willing sacrifice is taught in this passage (altho I would argue it is subordinate to the Godly leadership aspect) if one is going to speak of the implied 'all submission relationships' that idea is a bit absent.
And I would say that modern congregations probably don't really need more 'willing sacrifice' generalities, and do need a lot more instruction in Godly leadership. The idea of continually washing one's wife in the word would seem to be rather absent from the overwhelming majority of Christian husband's list of duties that they seem ready to fulfill. Change the oil, make the money, sure. Study and teach the word to their families... not so much.
>>>And we are all probably willing to acknowledge that it is a good idea to submit to the authority of our supervisors at work.
Yeah... but our moderns would have a LOT more problem with what the text actually says, eh? That slaves should submit to their masters?? Methinks that passage is a LOT more problematic nowadays than the wives/husbands one :)
>>willing obedience from the one submitting and willing sacrifice from the one being submitted to.
Fascinating parallel. Not one that would come to my mind. We have, what, at least five distinct relationships covered here? Husband/wife, parent/child (which is two relationships, but who's counting?), master/slave, magistrate/citizen, elder/parishoner.
I would have said that the contrast was 'willing obedience' (and, indeed, more than mere obedience) vs 'Godly leadership'. So in the husband/wife the husband is to 'wash... holy... blameless' In the case of fathers 'provoke not... bring them up... admonition of the Lord', and for masters 'forebearing threatening' (and, in other passages, other things), magistrate/citizen we read the magistrate is not to bear the sword in vain, but to execute wrath on those who do evil, and in the case of elders, to teach and exhort and discipline vis a vis sin.
The idea of willing sacrifice seems much less clear for most of those relationships, and only part of the husband/wife one.
Well, yes. This post is only focusing on the husbands and wives section of Paul's teaching about submission found here in Ephesians. And the idea of willing sacrifice from husbands I think is clearly taught in this passage. I'll get to the other relationships Paul specifically teaches on here in Ephesians in the next few posts, so stay tuned...
I guess I didn't paste enough for my comment to make sense. Here is the fuller quote:
>>First, that the submission relationships laid out in Scripture always entail specific obligations for both people involved: willing obedience from the one submitting and willing sacrifice from the one being submitted to.
I was focusing on the 'submission relationships... always entail... willing sacrifice'. That does not seem to be a common theme, although it could be forced into some relationships. There seems a distinct lack of Scriptural emphasis, for example, on how the civil magistrate is to 'willingly sacrifice' himself for those in his charge.
So while the willing sacrifice is taught in this passage (altho I would argue it is subordinate to the Godly leadership aspect) if one is going to speak of the implied 'all submission relationships' that idea is a bit absent.
And I would say that modern congregations probably don't really need more 'willing sacrifice' generalities, and do need a lot more instruction in Godly leadership. The idea of continually washing one's wife in the word would seem to be rather absent from the overwhelming majority of Christian husband's list of duties that they seem ready to fulfill. Change the oil, make the money, sure. Study and teach the word to their families... not so much.